The intelligent design debate

Monday, November 14, 2005

Holy crap! This is the best thing I've seen written on the ID/evolution debate by anyone!

I'll start with his disclaimer, so that people don't get the wrong idea:

I’ve been doing lots of reading on the subject, trying to gather comic fodder. I fully expected to validate my preconceived notion that the Darwinists had a mountain of credible evidence and the Intelligent Design folks were creationist kooks disguising themselves as scientists. That’s the way the media paints it. I had no reason to believe otherwise. The truth is a lot more interesting. Allow me to set you straight. (Note: I’m not a believer in Intelligent Design, Creationism, Darwinism, free will, non-monetary compensation, or anything else I can’t eat if I try hard enough.)
(Emphasis added by me)
Ok, now that that's out of the way, let's get to the heart of this piece.
First of all, you’d be hard pressed to find a useful debate about Darwinism and Intelligent Design, of the sort that you could use to form your own opinion. I can’t find one, and I’ve looked. What you have instead is each side misrepresenting the other’s position and then making a good argument for why the misrepresentation is wrong. (If you don’t believe me, just watch the comments I get to this post.)

Sounds like the 2004 elections, doesn't it?

I like the bit about the response in the comments. The man did create Dilbert, I guess it's reasonable to say that he has a sense of humor.
To make things more complicated, both sides have good and bad arguments lumped into them. If you make a good argument on your side, I respond by attacking your bad argument instead. If it were a debate contest, both sides would lose.

For example, Darwinists often argue that Intelligent Design can’t be true because we know the earth is over 10,000 years old. That would be a great argument, supported by every relevant branch of science, except that it has nothing to do with Intelligent Design.

Intelligent Design accepts an old earth and even accepts the fact that species probably evolved. They only question the “how.” Creationists have jumped on that bandwagon as a way to poke holes in Darwinism. The Creationists and the Intelligent Design folks have the same target (Darwin), but they don’t have the same argument. The average person who has a strong opinion on this topic doesn’t understand that distinction because the political agenda of the creationists makes things murky.

On the other side, Intelligent Design advocates point out a number of flaws in the textbooks that teach Darwinism. Apparently both sides of the debate acknowledge that the evidence for evolution is sometimes overstated or distorted in the service of making it simpler to teach. If you add to that the outright errors (acknowledged by both sides), the history of fossil frauds, the subjectivity of classifying fossils, and the fact that all of the human-like fossils ever found can fit inside a small box, you have lots of easy targets for the opponents. (Relax. I’m not saying Darwinism is wrong. I’m saying both sides have lots of easy targets.)

The other problem for people like me is that the “good” arguments on both sides are too complicated for me to understand. My fallback position in situations like this has always been to trust the experts – the scientists – of which more than 90%+ are sure that Darwin got it right.

The Intelligent Design people have a not-so-kooky argument against the idea of trusting 90%+ of scientists. They point out that evolution is supported by different branches of science (paleontologists, microbiologists, etc.) and those folks are specialists who only understand their own field. That’s no problem, you think, because each scientist validates Darwinism from his or her own specialty, then they all compare notes, and everything fits. Right?

Here’s where it gets interesting. The Intelligent Design people allege that some experts within each narrow field are NOT convinced that the evidence within their specialty is a slam-dunk support of Darwin. Each branch of science, they say, has pro-Darwinists who acknowledge that while they assume the other branches of science have more solid evidence for Darwinism, their own branch is lacking in that high level of certainty. In other words, the scientists are in a weird peer pressure, herd mentality loop where they think that the other guy must have the “good stuff.”

Is that possible? I have no way of knowing.

But let me give you a little analogy. One time in my corporate career I was assigned to lead a project to build a 10 million dollar technology laboratory. The project was based on the fact that “hundreds of our customers” wanted a place to test our technology before buying our products. I interviewed several managers who told me the same thing. Months into the project, I discovered that there was in fact only one customer who had once asked for that service, and he had been satisfied with another solution. The story of that one customer had been told and retold until everyone believed that someone else had direct knowledge of the hundreds of customers in need. If you guessed that we immediately stopped the project, you’ve never worked in a big company. We just changed our “reasons” and continued until funding got cut for unrelated budget reasons.

I’d be surprised if 90%+ of scientists are wrong about the evidence for Darwinism. But if you think it’s impossible, you’ve lived a sheltered life.

And with that first post I read on it, this blog has managed to establish itself as one of my very favorites.

What a refreshingly reasonable human being!

11 comments:

Matt McIntosh said...

This is a problem that's been bothering me for a while. As a self-educated layman who is as impressed by the power of the Darwinian research programme as anyone, and who is familiar enough with ID to understand the philosophical bankruptness of it, it frustrates me immensely to see the good guys in this fight shooting themselves in the foot with their own arrogance. (Much the same way I'm annoyed to no end by obnoxious Libertarians who are more concerned with flashing the badge of their own moral rectitude than actually engaging in constructive argument and persuasion.) This should be an incredibly easy battle for scientists to win: simply point out that ID is more philosophy than science, and that if ID proponents want to be taken seriously in the scientific community then they should start doing original work that has scientific relevance and rigor. Everything else is just a distraction.

The history of science is filled with examples of maverick researchers who started out being ridiculed for their ideas but eventually ended up being universally accepted because they rolled up their sleeves and fought for their ideas (Alfred Wegener and Ludwig Boltzmann, to name two off the top of my head). They didn't form a non-profit advocacy group to lobby state school boards and lawmakers to force teaching of their ideas, they didn't write popular polemical tracts, they didn't demand that science textbooks be rewritten. They won in the end not through politics but on the merits of their theories' explanatory power.

Dan Dennett hammered on this in a NYT op-ed, and this is exactly what the official line should be among scientists: if ID proponents want acceptance, let them paddle their own canoe. The idea that "we should teach the contraversy" appeals to people's intuitive notion of fairness, but this can be judo-flipped with the "paddle your own canoe" stance by appealing to people's intuitive sense that recognition has to be earned. ID is a hollow doctrine that thrives on a sense of persecution, but if scientists simply confined themselves to being coolly and persistently skeptical (like John Hawks) rather than venemously hostile (like PZ Meyers) then I'm confident that the ID movement would peter out.

Snotty McShot said...

This should be an incredibly easy battle for scientists to win: simply point out that ID is more philosophy than science, and that if ID proponents want to be taken seriously in the scientific community then they should start doing original work that has scientific relevance and rigor.

This has already been done thousands of times. It makes no difference to the public relations-based ID machine. They know there's no science in it, they aren't even remotely interested in any scientific pursuits. Their argument is entirely a media-manufactured phenomenon, based on the "teach the controversy" red herring.

Posts like Scott Adams' only serve to bolster their position too - witness the crowing from the ID crowd in his comments. Adams may think that his pranking serves as a wake-up call to scientists, but it's just more grist to the ID mill.

For more venomously hostile commentary, see here.

Adam Gurri said...

Well aren't you just a bundle of pleasantry

Snotty McShot said...

Oh, I'm a regular cheery chappy, alright.

I'm especially happy when cats like Adams manage to disguise their woeful ignorance as "reasonable" commentary. "Reason" doesn't even enter into it.

Hooray!

Adam Gurri said...

How dare he have an opinion, and talk about it. It's downright unAmerican.

It's a good thing that the world has people like you to tell us how it is from the courageous position of anonymity.

But please, tell me again how ignorant you think Adams is. I really, honestly, care what you think.

Matt McIntosh said...

Thank you for demonstrating my pount, Snotty (apt name). You are officially and willfully part of the problem.

Matt McIntosh said...

Typos: my arch-nemesis.

Snotty McShot said...

Oh jesus. Tell me where I said he shouldn't talk about his opinion. If you're gonna get all sanctimonious about what I say, at least do it about my actual insults, fer chrissakes.

He can have his opinion, and I can talk about his opinion as the swooning arse-piss it really is. That's how this ol' crap-o-sphere works, ain't it?

As to the matter, point me towards any misinterpretation by biologists of the ID position. Just one. I mean, it must be true, because Scott said it, and he's a reasonable guy! Also, point out where biologists have ignored the ID crowd's "good arguments" and trashed the bad instead. Come to think of it, if you can tell me what those ID "good arguments" are, that'd be awesome too. And who are these "Darwinists", anyway?

That might seem like a tall order, but I'm only asking for one example. If Scott's post isn't garbage, then it shouldn't be that hard.

Matt, I doubt I demonstrate your point: I'm most certainly not one of the "good guys in this fight".

And enough with the "courageous position of anonymity" cliché already, huh? You're as anonymous to me as I am to you. All I know about you is these words on your blog, and the words on mine are available to you at the click of a mouse. An actual point would be more worthwhile than that nonsense.

Adam Gurri said...

He can have his opinion, and I can talk about his opinion as the swooning arse-piss it really is. That's how this ol' crap-o-sphere works, ain't it?

You're an asshole, Snot. But I have to say, after reading this, you might just be my kind of asshole.

As to the matter, point me towards any misinterpretation by biologists of the ID position. Just one. I mean, it must be true, because Scott said it, and he's a reasonable guy! Also, point out where biologists have ignored the ID crowd's "good arguments" and trashed the bad instead. Come to think of it, if you can tell me what those ID "good arguments" are, that'd be awesome too. And who are these "Darwinists", anyway?

Meh. To be honest, I haven't read into this debate at all because I've no interest in it. But I can tell you that a lot of the literature that ID rests on is actually well worth reading--like Darwin's Black Box, written my a prominent biochemist. I'm pretty sure that it predates the ID debate, but it's a pretty well-written critique of some of modern evolutionary biology's theories.

I personally disagree with its conclusions, but I think that well-researched doubting and questioning of an established paradigm can only be beneficial to science as a whole.

In any case, I'm not going to try and look for any articles to back up what Scott's saying because, for one thing, I think you're right that he should have linked to actual examples himself, and for another, I also disagree with him.

I think there's plenty of ways to get informed on this one.

But I also think that it's reasonable to take a step back, after going through a few articles, and express a certain frustration when it seems like you're just reading different groups that are talking past one another. I'm so used to reading someone who's dogmatically for one side or the other that it just seemed kind of nice to find someone who was approaching it with a little humility and an open mind.

Ultimately, though, I think that his thing about "credibility" is a lame excuse to be lazy and not take the necessary time to gather enough information to feel comfortable in what he believes.

And enough with the "courageous position of anonymity" cliché already, huh? You're as anonymous to me as I am to you. All I know about you is these words on your blog, and the words on mine are available to you at the click of a mouse. An actual point would be more worthwhile than that nonsense.

Fair enough.

Your move.

Snotty McShot said...

"Your move".

Ooooh, I almost popped a boner reading that. What are you Bruce Willis now?

"I think that well-researched doubting and questioning of an established paradigm can only be beneficial to science as a whole"

Yeah, absolutely. That's pretty much what science is all about, too, so there's really no need to worry.

If you are interested in advancing beyond "meh", why not spend a few lunch hours browsing around Talk Origins? It's really quite good.

Turns out they've got quite a bit to say about yer boy Michael Behe, too.

Basically, for me, being "reasonable" often involves more than some sort of contrived fence-sitting routine or fallacious cop-out. That's the crux of it, I guess.

Adam Gurri said...

What are you Bruce Willis now?

Everyone has their dreams.


Yeah, absolutely. That's pretty much what science is all about, too, so there's really no need to worry.


Yup. The most underestimated side of science, I think.

If you are interested in advancing beyond "meh", why not spend a few lunch hours browsing around Talk Origins? It's really quite good.

Thanks, I'll definately check 'em out.